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response to Rick Hartzog, #34012

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  • Cserháti Mátyás
    Dear Rick Hartzog, I would like to address your charges of creationist foolishness and how I m trying to use my scientific pisition to spread creationism.
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 1 9:14 AM
      Dear Rick Hartzog,

      I would like to address your charges of "creationist foolishness" and how I'm trying to use my scientific pisition to spread creationism.
      First of all, it is rather rude and uncharitable to call someone else a fool just because of their worldview.
      You are a member of the Worldwide "Church" of Latitudinarianism, don't you recall how Jesus says that if you call someone a fool, you are worthy of damnation?
      Obviously the Bible isn't a standard for you. WW"C"L, what an interesting "church", but it seems we shouldn't take anyone seriously who is daft enough to make up such a religion
      where the Webster is your sacred text, you worship a bird as your symbol, and wear bunting for clothes...

      I don't know about you, but I use my position as a means of livelihood. My present position doesn't have anything to do with creationism.
      Let me also assure you that you don't have telepathy despite your grand implications as to having this capability.

      Anyway, this is how I lost my job due to creationism:
      I had been working for 2 years at a position, and I had been working on a project entirely unrelated to creationism.
      My boss was satisfied with my work. It was until 1 year ago he discovered I believed in creationism, and started cussing at me, cussing my religion. Now, you might not realize this, but this is hate speech, I'm just assuming taking the atmosphere of this email list that you would do the same. He made other similar insulting remarks. He also informed me that our paper had been rejected because I was a creationist.Then he started cussing at me again, and demanded that I take a creationist presentation off of the Internet that I had made and presented at a church. As if though he was an elder there.

      Neveretheless I'm sure you don't care that I lost my job, you're prbably rejoicing that it made me making a livelihood then a lot harder. You are uncaring and unfeeling, someone else's pain is your profit...

      Matthew

    • greeneto
      I m not Rick, so I m not answering for Rick, but now I see what s up... Hey Matt, awww... Ain t that just too bad. You actually have to deal with consequences
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 1 10:53 AM
        I'm not Rick, so I'm not answering for Rick, but now I see what's up...

        Hey Matt, awww... Ain't that just too bad. You actually have to deal with consequences of your nonsense. Oh, and now you're trying the "hate speech" route of trying to suppress free speech (such as the open and blatant criticism of your religious pseudoscience nonsense) just like Muslims are doing in other countries.

        Hey, grab a hint, that kind of vacuous rhetoric ain't gonna fly here because in the United States (fortunately, due to the strong cultural heritage we have here in regard to the free speech principle) "hate speech" is perfectly okay because we understand the value of criticism - and we also understand how snake oil salesmen like yourself love to play rhetorical games trying to pretend that the harsh scrutiny of your pseudoscience is "hate speech" that should be suppressed. Perhaps your rhetorical trickery on this point works effectively with the naive, but with those familiar with such nonsense it's nothing more than an amusing joke.

        In regard to your other claims - hey, again, we are not naive but know exactly how young earth creationists operate, and are well aware not only of the fact but have considerable experience with the fact that young earth creationists love to make things up and misrepresent everything in sight. So where is your recording of these conversations? Is it on tape? When are you going to take him to court and back up your claims with - you know - actual evidence?

        Until that point - precisely because of the reputation of playing fast and loose with the facts, well, when you even actually have any facts besides just making things up - all we know we are seeing are the typically vacuous frothings at the mouth that young earth creationists are so well known for.

        If it is actually the truth that your credibility in regard to any *other* scientific research took a hit - not that anyone actually takes your mere say-so on it - that would be a shame, and it would be even more of a shame if because of your young earth creationist reputation someone else's work also took a hit when he didn't even know anything about this fact about you. It's no wonder he would be irritated about it. I would be too.

        So here's the lesson for you: The next time you try to work with someone make sure you are open and honest about the FACT that you're a young earth creationist, instead of trying to be all shady about it. And then you would not create this kind of situation.

        - Todd (Steve) Greene
      • piasanaol
        As was the case with Todd, I m not able to speak for Rick, but since this is posted in a public forum, it s not too much of a stretch for me to ask some
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 1 11:48 AM
          As was the case with Todd, I'm not able to speak for Rick, but since this is posted in a public forum, it's not too much of a stretch for me to ask some questions.... for clarification if nothing else.....
           
           
          Matthew claims:
          I don't know about you, but I use my position as a means of livelihood. My present position doesn't have anything to do with creationism.
          Let me also assure you that you don't have telepathy despite your grand implications as to having this capability.
           
          Pi comments:
          I suspect most of us use our jobs as the primary means by which we make our livelihood.  As for your present position, there is no way to tell if it has anything to do with creationism or not without more information about it ..... which would have to come from you.  I'm not looking for such specifics as your employer but it would be very helpful if we knew what the position is and hat the job duties are.  Even then, your present position tells us nothing at all about whether or not the termination from your former employment was justifiable or not.
           
          As you point out, we don't have telepathy.
           
           
           
          Matthew cleams:
          Anyway, this is how I lost my job due to creationism:
          I had been working for 2 years at a position, and I had been working on a project entirely unrelated to creationism.
           
          Pi asks:
          Position?  Field of employment?  What was the project?
           
           
          Matthew claims:
          My boss was satisfied with my work. It was until 1 year ago he discovered I believed in creationism, and started cussing at me, cussing my religion. Now, you might not realize this, but this is hate speech, I'm just assuming taking the atmosphere of this email list that you would do the same. He made other similar insulting remarks.
           
          Pi:
          Again, we would need a lot more information to make any kind of valid conclusion on this.... what industry?  how many employees at the firm?
           
           
           
          Matthew:
          He also informed me that our paper had been rejected because I was a creationist.
           
          Pi:
          What was the subject of the paper?  What did it say?
           
           
           
           
          Matthew:
          Then he started cussing at me again, and demanded that I take a creationist presentation off of the Internet that I had made and presented at a church. As if though he was an elder there.
           
          Pi:
          Welcome to the age of social media.  How many people have been denied employment, or fired, due to what they had posted on their "Facebook" (or some other social media) pages?  Don't feel like the Lone Stranger.
           
           

          Matthew:
          Neveretheless I'm sure you don't care that I lost my job, you're prbably rejoicing that it made me making a livelihood then a lot harder. You are uncaring and unfeeling, someone else's pain is your profit...

          Pi:
          Speaking for myself only.... I take no joy in someone losing their job.... even when I've been the one who had to terminate them.  At a number of job interviews, prospective employers have asked me what is the most difficult decision I ever had to make at work.  My response used to be the termination of an employee.  Then, one day an interviewer asked me the question and I responded that: "It used to be termination of employees, but that's no longer the case.  His eyebrows went up and he asked: "What could be harder than a termination.  My response:  "We were running out of work and I had to send perfectly good people home without pay because I didn't have enough for them to do.  I was taking food off their table thru no fault of theirs.  At least in a termination, there is fault and the employee (usually) knows it's coming."
           
          In other situations, I've been the one who was unjustly put on the spot..... sometimes for doing my job too well.  As I've pointed out before, I would need to know a lot more about the particulars to form a valid opinion on your termination.
           
          As for profit.... how on Earth would anyone on this list "profit" from you losing your job?
           
          Now... if you would like to share more of the particulars, I'm listening.  If not, then I lack the information to form a valid conclusion about your situation and what took place.
           
           
        • Robert Baty
          Pi, Matthew s current work, if the website is current, is quite public and includes his employer, phone numbers and even his email address:
          Message 4 of 6 , Nov 1 12:17 PM
            Pi,

            Matthew's current work, if the website is current, is quite public and includes his employer, phone numbers and even his email address:

            http://unmc.edu/bsbc/cserhati.htm

            I don't know any of the details regarding any claims as to any job loss.

            Sincerely,
            Robert Baty


            To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
            From: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2014 14:48:07 -0400
            Subject: Re: [M & B] response to Rick Hartzog, #34012

             

            As was the case with Todd, I'm not able to speak for Rick, but since this is posted in a public forum, it's not too much of a stretch for me to ask some questions.... for clarification if nothing else.....
             
             
            Matthew claims:
            I don't know about you, but I use my position as a means of livelihood. My present position doesn't have anything to do with creationism.
            Let me also assure you that you don't have telepathy despite your grand implications as to having this capability.
             
            Pi comments:
            I suspect most of us use our jobs as the primary means by which we make our livelihood.  As for your present position, there is no way to tell if it has anything to do with creationism or not without more information about it ..... which would have to come from you.  I'm not looking for such specifics as your employer but it would be very helpful if we knew what the position is and hat the job duties are.  Even then, your present position tells us nothing at all about whether or not the termination from your former employment was justifiable or not.
             
            As you point out, we don't have telepathy.
             
             
             
            Matthew cleams:
            Anyway, this is how I lost my job due to creationism:
            I had been working for 2 years at a position, and I had been working on a project entirely unrelated to creationism.
             
            Pi asks:
            Position?  Field of employment?  What was the project?
             
             
            Matthew claims:
            My boss was satisfied with my work. It was until 1 year ago he discovered I believed in creationism, and started cussing at me, cussing my religion. Now, you might not realize this, but this is hate speech, I'm just assuming taking the atmosphere of this email list that you would do the same. He made other similar insulting remarks.
             
            Pi:
            Again, we would need a lot more information to make any kind of valid conclusion on this.... what industry?  how many employees at the firm?
             
             
             
            Matthew:
            He also informed me that our paper had been rejected because I was a creationist.
             
            Pi:
            What was the subject of the paper?  What did it say?
             
             
             
             
            Matthew:
            Then he started cussing at me again, and demanded that I take a creationist presentation off of the Internet that I had made and presented at a church. As if though he was an elder there.
             
            Pi:
            Welcome to the age of social media.  How many people have been denied employment, or fired, due to what they had posted on their "Facebook" (or some other social media) pages?  Don't feel like the Lone Stranger.
             
             

            Matthew:
            Neveretheless I'm sure you don't care that I lost my job, you're prbably rejoicing that it made me making a livelihood then a lot harder. You are uncaring and unfeeling, someone else's pain is your profit...

            Pi:
            Speaking for myself only.... I take no joy in someone losing their job.... even when I've been the one who had to terminate them.  At a number of job interviews, prospective employers have asked me what is the most difficult decision I ever had to make at work.  My response used to be the termination of an employee.  Then, one day an interviewer asked me the question and I responded that: "It used to be termination of employees, but that's no longer the case.  His eyebrows went up and he asked: "What could be harder than a termination.  My response:  "We were running out of work and I had to send perfectly good people home without pay because I didn't have enough for them to do.  I was taking food off their table thru no fault of theirs.  At least in a termination, there is fault and the employee (usually) knows it's coming."
             
            In other situations, I've been the one who was unjustly put on the spot..... sometimes for doing my job too well.  As I've pointed out before, I would need to know a lot more about the particulars to form a valid opinion on your termination.
             
            As for profit.... how on Earth would anyone on this list "profit" from you losing your job?
             
            Now... if you would like to share more of the particulars, I'm listening.  If not, then I lack the information to form a valid conclusion about your situation and what took place.
             
             

          • Robert Baty
            Matthew s FaceBook page advertises his employment history as: University of Nebraska Medical Center - UNMCProgrammer . October 2013 to present . Omaha,
            Message 5 of 6 , Nov 1 12:42 PM
              Matthew's FaceBook page advertises his employment history as:



              Is it one of those employers that allegedly fired him?
              Maybe he didn't list that employer.



              I don't know.


              Sincerely,
              Robert Baty




              To: maury_and_baty@yahoogroups.com
              From: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2014 15:17:15 -0400
              Subject: RE: [M & B] response to Rick Hartzog, #34012

               

              Pi,

              Matthew's current work, if the website is current, is quite public and includes his employer, phone numbers and even his email address:

              http://unmc.edu/bsbc/cserhati.htm

              I don't know any of the details regarding any claims as to any job loss.

              Sincerely,
              Robert Baty


              To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
              From: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2014 14:48:07 -0400
              Subject: Re: [M & B] response to Rick Hartzog, #34012

               

              As was the case with Todd, I'm not able to speak for Rick, but since this is posted in a public forum, it's not too much of a stretch for me to ask some questions.... for clarification if nothing else.....
               
               
              Matthew claims:
              I don't know about you, but I use my position as a means of livelihood. My present position doesn't have anything to do with creationism.
              Let me also assure you that you don't have telepathy despite your grand implications as to having this capability.
               
              Pi comments:
              I suspect most of us use our jobs as the primary means by which we make our livelihood.  As for your present position, there is no way to tell if it has anything to do with creationism or not without more information about it ..... which would have to come from you.  I'm not looking for such specifics as your employer but it would be very helpful if we knew what the position is and hat the job duties are.  Even then, your present position tells us nothing at all about whether or not the termination from your former employment was justifiable or not.
               
              As you point out, we don't have telepathy.
               
               
               
              Matthew cleams:
              Anyway, this is how I lost my job due to creationism:
              I had been working for 2 years at a position, and I had been working on a project entirely unrelated to creationism.
               
              Pi asks:
              Position?  Field of employment?  What was the project?
               
               
              Matthew claims:
              My boss was satisfied with my work. It was until 1 year ago he discovered I believed in creationism, and started cussing at me, cussing my religion. Now, you might not realize this, but this is hate speech, I'm just assuming taking the atmosphere of this email list that you would do the same. He made other similar insulting remarks.
               
              Pi:
              Again, we would need a lot more information to make any kind of valid conclusion on this.... what industry?  how many employees at the firm?
               
               
               
              Matthew:
              He also informed me that our paper had been rejected because I was a creationist.
               
              Pi:
              What was the subject of the paper?  What did it say?
               
               
               
               
              Matthew:
              Then he started cussing at me again, and demanded that I take a creationist presentation off of the Internet that I had made and presented at a church. As if though he was an elder there.
               
              Pi:
              Welcome to the age of social media.  How many people have been denied employment, or fired, due to what they had posted on their "Facebook" (or some other social media) pages?  Don't feel like the Lone Stranger.
               
               

              Matthew:
              Neveretheless I'm sure you don't care that I lost my job, you're prbably rejoicing that it made me making a livelihood then a lot harder. You are uncaring and unfeeling, someone else's pain is your profit...

              Pi:
              Speaking for myself only.... I take no joy in someone losing their job.... even when I've been the one who had to terminate them.  At a number of job interviews, prospective employers have asked me what is the most difficult decision I ever had to make at work.  My response used to be the termination of an employee.  Then, one day an interviewer asked me the question and I responded that: "It used to be termination of employees, but that's no longer the case.  His eyebrows went up and he asked: "What could be harder than a termination.  My response:  "We were running out of work and I had to send perfectly good people home without pay because I didn't have enough for them to do.  I was taking food off their table thru no fault of theirs.  At least in a termination, there is fault and the employee (usually) knows it's coming."
               
              In other situations, I've been the one who was unjustly put on the spot..... sometimes for doing my job too well.  As I've pointed out before, I would need to know a lot more about the particulars to form a valid opinion on your termination.
               
              As for profit.... how on Earth would anyone on this list "profit" from you losing your job?
               
              Now... if you would like to share more of the particulars, I'm listening.  If not, then I lack the information to form a valid conclusion about your situation and what took place.
               
               


            • w_w_c_l
              ... Yeah, well, it s downright dishonest of you to pretend I ve called you a fool, Matthew Cserhati. So don t play me for one. This doesn t have anything to
              Message 6 of 6 , Nov 1 2:09 PM

                Matthew Cserhati:

                > First of all, it is rather rude and uncharitable to

                > call someone else a fool just because of their worldview.

                 

                Yeah, well, it's downright dishonest of you to pretend I've called you a fool, Matthew Cserhati.  So don't play me for one.  This doesn't have anything to do with Rick Hartzog or the Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism, though I thank you for your interest.  What this is about is an argument that you made, all by yourself, ostensibly in support of a young age for the Earth.  You selected an abnormal sample, made unwarranted uniformitarian assumptions, and drew an unsupported conclusion without addressing contradictory evidence.  We do have plants a lot older than cultivated barley, you know, Dr. Cserhati.

                 

                Now, this kind of thinking is certainly not sound research, so when you say you got a paper rejected because you were a creationist, well, maybe it goes a little deeper than that.  Whether "Barley Transposons Indicate a Young Age for the Earth" was written by a creationist or not doesn't much matter -- the result is the same.  Surely, since you are no fool, Dr. Cserhati, you can understand what the problem is with that.

                 

                And surely, given the recent shenanigans of Mark Armitage over his CSUN termination, you can understand why it would be in the best interests of certain institutions hiring for certain positions to know ahead of time whether prospective candidates held and actively promoted ANTI-SCIENCE views such as your own?  Go put in an application at AIG or ICR -- they won't care what your research design looks like as long as you come to the right conclusion.  Maybe you can be featured in the sequel to "Expelled!"  Wouldn't you be happier in a place like that, where your creationist delusions can be nurtured and developed rather than ridiculed and cursed?

                 

                If you really and truly believe, Dr. Cserhati, that Genesis 1:1 is a true statement, that God made "everything," then there are certain logical implications of that proposition and one of them, I believe, is that you would want to make absolutely sure that whatever you said about God's Creation is the Truth.  No, I don't think you are a "fool," Dr. Cserhati.  I just think you hate the truth.


                Rick Hartzog
                Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism

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